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#26 2011-09-28 19:32:56

yawnoCmai
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From: Fairfax, VA
Registered: 2011-02-23
User Number: 5233
Posts: 633

Re: Camber and tire pressure for autox

ok... Just got a real alignment done. Yes, moving the strut tops in throws off toe...

Before toe
LF -0.48 RF -0.40
LR 0.06  RR -0.35

Before camber
LF -0.9  RF -1.4
LR -1.1 RR -.03

After camber
LF -1.3  RF -1.4
LR -0.6  RR -0.4

I need to camber bolts on the rear to dial everything in correctly(since using the tops is PITA when doing an alignment). Is it possible to get larger camber bolts for the fronts to get some more negative camber? The tops are all the way in, and the bolts were just adjusted to even everything out.

Then the caster is 3.3 on the left and 3.7 on the right. Whats good for caster?

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#27 2011-09-28 21:26:16

Scargo
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From: Hancock, NY
Registered: 2005-06-15
User Number: 227
Posts: 13212

Re: Camber and tire pressure for autox

arrow-up I'm somewhat surprised that you have so little negative camber available with your plates and coil-overs. Your set up full in is merely an aggressive street alignment up front and not even stock rear alignment. Look up stock specs in the tech docs section of this site and set up the rear center of spec.

THEN search this site (or NASIOC) for extended range (smaller diameter) camber bolts (sometimes called "crash bolts"). They're cheap. Lots of sources. Buy a pair. Set up the front end with the camber plates in the "outer most" position (leave wiggle room for some positive camber adjustment, make both plates in an equal position). THEN, try to get as much positive caster possible, keeping things equal. THEN use the camber bolts and set up a decent aggressive street camber (-1.2 to -1.6 or so). THEN set zero toe.

THIS is your street set up. Record all settings.

Nice thing with plates, if you drop the front plates inwards, the front toe toes out, ideal for Auto-X. You now only need to find how far you need to tilt in the fronts to achieve your target static race camber, and record this setting. The resultant toe out will be whatever it is, at this stage it'll only help. The only bad is some camber plates (such as my Noltecs) when used as instructed, will lose positive caster to gain negative camber. If so, you're going to have to reach a compromise (remember, you want max -camber, max +caster, which on these cars max achievable is well within sanity in race mode) which would best be figured out on a "test and tune" day.

Also remember, when static camber gets a bit extreme (> 2.5*) you will lose straight line braking grip. Again, the compromise will have to be determined by you and your driving style. Late brakers may want a bit more braking grip at the expense of cornering grip.

Also, a larger or stiffer front sway bar may also allow you to reduce the amount of static camber you want. Camber will also allow for lower front pressures, yielding more grip, which will cause more roll (needing more camber). It's a vicious cycle, which requires ... compromise.

WHEN you finally get the front set up (a photo visual trick would be if you're consistently picking up the inside front wheel in a typical longer on course corner, you're pretty close to the limit), THEN and ONLY THEN start adjusting rear camber, roll bar stiffness, etc., to suit your style and/or your tested course times. The biggest problem here is going to be how consistent you are as a driver, otherwise you're going to be chasing your own tail.

Good luck, hope this helps.


1995.5 Audi //S6, Black/Ecru; MRC Stage 2, Eibach/Bilstein, RS2 BBK, HID's, Eurotails
2005 Saab 9-2X Aero Satin Grey; Cobb STX tune/Cobb 25 mm FSB, FHI RSB/H6 upgrade/Prodrive Blues, Koni Inserts/IxizHood/Stromung DP, Cat, STi catback, Hella MicroDE fogs, color keyed/polished roof rails.

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#28 2011-09-29 07:49:59

Linear Man
aka Boxer4dad
From: Brighton, MI
Registered: 2005-10-05
User Number: 837
Posts: 3495

Re: Camber and tire pressure for autox

I'm also surprised that is all you can get.  Do your plates only give you 1* more?  Also, more caster is better, up to about 6*.  You are around the stock numbers now.  Adding caster improves stability.  My plates didn't add much of it, either.  I think it was about 3.8* on my car when I had it all set up.  If you go to buy camber bolts, google "81260 camber bolts" and you'll find a bunch, cheap.  I got mine from Summitracing.com, but there's lots of sources for the same bolts.

Scargo's right about rear camber, though. It's not going to make much difference.  Even if you added the bolts, you should set them, and forget them.  Make the front end work right, and adjust the rear with tire pressure changes.  And, make sure your rear toe is good.  A little bit goes a long way in the rear, and it can easily exaggerate things once the tail gets loose.  Your "before" numbers above show the rear being a bit off.


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#29 2011-09-29 23:39:20

yawnoCmai
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From: Fairfax, VA
Registered: 2011-02-23
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Posts: 633

Re: Camber and tire pressure for autox

My plan for the rear was just that, to get the plates even, then dial everything in with the bolts, since its a lot easier to fine tune with the bolts over the plates. It was a huge PITA trying to get the rear camber set since we had to jack up each side while on the lift for the alignment machine to adjust the plates. As of now I set the rear sway to the softest setting, and my plan is the keep the rear dampening soft for my next race. As for the front plates, I don't know whats up with them. I read some guy doing a review on these coilovers who said he easily could have gone to -2*. As for the "before" numbers, they are off which might make sense for how unstable my car was. I still need to read through your response some more scargo to digest it completely, but thank you and Linear man for your help. I think by the start of next year, I might know a thing or two about setting up a suspension for when I step out of the comfort zone of novice.

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#30 2011-10-03 15:57:02

Linear Man
aka Boxer4dad
From: Brighton, MI
Registered: 2005-10-05
User Number: 837
Posts: 3495

Re: Camber and tire pressure for autox

I just thought I'd toss this video on here.  I "retired" this year, but people still send me stuff from the local events.  This vid is from a PAX-winning FSP Neon that some people on here know of.  Fast car and fast driver.  His speed is amazing, and this is a 1997 ACR - no turbos or anything.  It does run on 15x10 wheels with 275 width Hoosiers, though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kavoCPDo … re=related

It really starts at about 1:00...


I am glad I don't have to imagine my Linear competing with him any more.   banana  Imagining was about all I really did anyway.  He often took FTD straight up, even at Corvette Club events, so being within 3 or 4 seconds was typical for a lot of people.  I just thought it was a good video to watch his line, and note the strong braking.

Last edited by Linear Man (2011-10-03 15:59:47)


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#31 2011-10-03 16:12:30

Scargo
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From: Hancock, NY
Registered: 2005-06-15
User Number: 227
Posts: 13212

Re: Camber and tire pressure for autox

arrow-up  I had to laugh when you said "strong braking". Even the slightly larger Aero brakes don't have, IMHO, strong brakes. The WRX/92X is definitely an early braking kind of car, the Neon (which is 2300 lbs light, my previous Auto-X bitch, a 2200 lb A2 GTi, was pretty well the same sort of beast, although it doesn't have the turn-in that an ACR Neon does (driven them on course as an instructor driving a student's car, pretty awesome car actually, almost MiniCooper sport package like).


1995.5 Audi //S6, Black/Ecru; MRC Stage 2, Eibach/Bilstein, RS2 BBK, HID's, Eurotails
2005 Saab 9-2X Aero Satin Grey; Cobb STX tune/Cobb 25 mm FSB, FHI RSB/H6 upgrade/Prodrive Blues, Koni Inserts/IxizHood/Stromung DP, Cat, STi catback, Hella MicroDE fogs, color keyed/polished roof rails.

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#32 2011-10-03 16:29:39

Scargo
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From: Hancock, NY
Registered: 2005-06-15
User Number: 227
Posts: 13212

Re: Camber and tire pressure for autox

Linear Man wrote:

I just thought I'd toss this video on here.  I "retired" this year, but people still send me stuff from the local events.  This vid is from a PAX-winning FSP Neon that some people on here know of.  Fast car and fast driver.  His speed is amazing, and this is a 1997 ACR - no turbos or anything.  It does run on 15x10 wheels with 275 width Hoosiers, though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kavoCPDo … re=related

It really starts at about 1:00...


I am glad I don't have to imagine my Linear competing with him any more.   banana  Imagining was about all I really did anyway.  He often took FTD straight up, even at Corvette Club events, so being within 3 or 4 seconds was typical for a lot of people.  I just thought it was a good video to watch his line, and note the strong braking.

Also I've noted (that many people don't seem to attempt to try) that Sean (I've seen him at Divisional Events) doesn't try to power through tighter/slower corners. This is NOT a FWD issue, it's a proper driving issue, in fact many in the FWD/AWD Autocross arena can (and do) use the driven front wheels to pull the nose into certain types of corners (I'm finally nearly there in my set-up, it's just not consistent enough yet). What does surprise me is how most of his corners are "classic" in their line, rather than the late apex most of us in street cars use.  Of course, if that Neon is in CSP, it's probably hardly a "street" car anymore. Which is probably one reason he's 3 - 4 seconds faster than most in your regional events, my bet is that his car shows up on a trailer. There really isn't a whole lot of "street" in current competitive "street prepared" cars.


1995.5 Audi //S6, Black/Ecru; MRC Stage 2, Eibach/Bilstein, RS2 BBK, HID's, Eurotails
2005 Saab 9-2X Aero Satin Grey; Cobb STX tune/Cobb 25 mm FSB, FHI RSB/H6 upgrade/Prodrive Blues, Koni Inserts/IxizHood/Stromung DP, Cat, STi catback, Hella MicroDE fogs, color keyed/polished roof rails.

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#33 2011-10-03 16:35:36

Linear Man
aka Boxer4dad
From: Brighton, MI
Registered: 2005-10-05
User Number: 837
Posts: 3495

Re: Camber and tire pressure for autox

Well, it's all relative.  For autocross. initial bite is most of it, anyway.  For me, in the process of trying to "be smooth", I overlooked this braking stuff for a long time until I had someone else drive my car as I rode along.  After he beat me by 2 seconds, the light came on.  To me, it's consciously TRULY getting it slowed before entry, then powering smoothly out, and not sliding-it-in, sliding-it-out, trying to stay on line.  That's all.

Oh, and those 275s on a Neon make a massive difference, too.  He used to run 225s, and I was closer to hanging with him...  That car is down around 2200, too, I think.  It's been lightened quite a bit, and has not been street-driven for the past several years, either in ST or SP trim.  Bunnspeed probably knows more about this car than I do, from his Neon-owner days, but that now he's into boulevard cruisers, he may not remember this phase so well.   biggrin

Anyway, I liked the video.  It was a good angle, and the car was clearly well-driven.

Edit:  He's in FSP, and he's a former Kart champion, so that may color his choice of lines.  That was at a Corvette Club event, too, where there is usually a lot of width to work with for us "steel-bodies", and maintaining momentum is the key for us low-power types.

Last edited by Linear Man (2011-10-03 16:38:42)


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#34 2011-10-03 17:10:45

Scargo
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From: Hancock, NY
Registered: 2005-06-15
User Number: 227
Posts: 13212

Re: Camber and tire pressure for autox

arrow-up  I figured he was in some form of SP class with 275's.

And yeah, braking is a BIG part of things. Has me thinking of the H6 upgrade, to get more intial bite. Won't help ultimate braking "G's" but from my brake bias experiments with my GTi (yup, VW's actually came with an adjustable bias valve) the initial bite should improve. And generally, grip is good, sliding...bad.

And, if you want real heavy braking, got a ride-along in a well driven C6 Z06 (just missed FTD vs. a Prepared class car).  In spite of what trackies say about Z06's brakes, DAMN those things really work. I'd imagine if I were to get my first drive in one (with good tires, not the stupid OE runflats), I'd brake so early that it'd look like the Hamster's first time trying a semi-modern F1 car...or was that Clarkson?


1995.5 Audi //S6, Black/Ecru; MRC Stage 2, Eibach/Bilstein, RS2 BBK, HID's, Eurotails
2005 Saab 9-2X Aero Satin Grey; Cobb STX tune/Cobb 25 mm FSB, FHI RSB/H6 upgrade/Prodrive Blues, Koni Inserts/IxizHood/Stromung DP, Cat, STi catback, Hella MicroDE fogs, color keyed/polished roof rails.

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#35 2011-10-04 07:34:34

Linear Man
aka Boxer4dad
From: Brighton, MI
Registered: 2005-10-05
User Number: 837
Posts: 3495

Re: Camber and tire pressure for autox

Funny you say that...  The guy who got me into autocross has an '02 Z06.  No $hit on the braking.  On a ride-along with him, we both decided that maybe our WERE so different there wasn't much to learn from...  But yeah, the part I remember most was being thrown forward during braking, and then slammed back into the seat when he hit the go pedal.  He is (still) more into tracking his car, and very late, hard braking.  Now he runs in Street Tire SS, and I could usually beat him (DSP trim) on a good day, despite not being able  to throw passengers around like that.   big_smile 

Our lines for entering corners were very different, and our thought processes (since when do you worry about a Linear stepping out on you if you nudge the throttle too early?) were as well.  I learned to become all about momentum conservation, and he was always about "where can I get back on that go pedal".  I learned I could get on it way before where he could, but since he had LS-power, I wasn't going to be going faster for long.


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#36 2011-10-04 16:26:50

Scargo
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From: Hancock, NY
Registered: 2005-06-15
User Number: 227
Posts: 13212

Re: Camber and tire pressure for autox

arrow-up  Yeah, BUT, part of the earlier throttle application comes from AWD vs 2WD.  Less stress on any one contact patch, less effect on lateral acceleration = earlier throttle, but the points don't change that much. FWIW, the faster Z06 drivers don't slam the go pedal, they get on it a bit sooner but do it with finess.  Their straights are MUCH longer than the pedal slammers.  My ride along never featured ANY slamming. Just progressive (and massive) forces.

And, I'd bet you'd be surprised how much you're throwing peeps around in the car. In my region, I am noted for being very smooth. However, since I'm now doing double duty as a Solo Safety Steward as well as driving (and working), sometimes my brain just isn't quite in the car when I start. So on one event last season, I forgot to lock my belts until AFTER I had launched.  I could barely stay in the seat and even then, nowhere driving my best, I was 2 seconds slower on a ~40 second course.  I could not use the wheel to hold me in place, nor bracing against the door and center console. I was only able to hold myself in place under braking (sort of, modulation was difficult) due to brake pedal pressure and the dead pedal (screw the clutch at this point, got to hang on) and under ... ahem... acceleration (?!?!).  Yup, the only thing worse than a Linear under throttle is a stock class 2.0 Aero at no boost... roll

BTW, when you were running DSP, were you running R-comps? If you were beating a ST SS class C5 Z06 'Vette, you were simply out driving him. My ride along was also in a ST SS (C6) Z06 and if you look at the PAX indicies, he still should have beat you in raw times. Good job (have I convinced you to come back yet?).


1995.5 Audi //S6, Black/Ecru; MRC Stage 2, Eibach/Bilstein, RS2 BBK, HID's, Eurotails
2005 Saab 9-2X Aero Satin Grey; Cobb STX tune/Cobb 25 mm FSB, FHI RSB/H6 upgrade/Prodrive Blues, Koni Inserts/IxizHood/Stromung DP, Cat, STi catback, Hella MicroDE fogs, color keyed/polished roof rails.

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#37 2011-10-04 16:43:26

Linear Man
aka Boxer4dad
From: Brighton, MI
Registered: 2005-10-05
User Number: 837
Posts: 3495

Re: Camber and tire pressure for autox

Scargo wrote:

BTW, when you were running DSP, were you running R-comps? If you were beating a ST SS class C5 Z06 'Vette, you were simply out driving him. My ride along was also in a ST SS (C6) Z06 and if you look at the PAX indicies, he still should have beat you in raw times. Good job (have I convinced you to come back yet?).

Yes 205 Hoosiers last year.  I could beat some of the Corvettes on street tires, but usually got most of them with the Hoosiers.  Of course, the race-tired vettes could beat me without much trouble...  Didn't realize that about the indexes.  No, I'm not coming back soon, though it was loads of fun. Too much soccer, softball, scouts and stuff.  Maybe I'll be able to talk one of my kids into doing it in a few years...  One can dream, right?


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#38 2011-10-04 18:28:14

yawnoCmai
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From: Fairfax, VA
Registered: 2011-02-23
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Posts: 633

Re: Camber and tire pressure for autox

arrow-up How old are your kids? Junior Kart range....?

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#39 2011-10-05 08:44:10

Linear Man
aka Boxer4dad
From: Brighton, MI
Registered: 2005-10-05
User Number: 837
Posts: 3495

Re: Camber and tire pressure for autox

My daughter is old enough at 10, but has become shy about taking the wheel.  She's very competitive in her sports, so I think this would be a natural interest at some point.  If some of the boys in her classroom were doing it, I'm certain she would, just to kick their butts (just like she does in soccer, basketball, etc).  Besides, her mother is glad that I'm selling all my tires and parts and cleaning out the garage.  Adding a kart would not be good for domestic tranquility.  In fact, the only thing it would have in its favor is that it's not for me, it's for the kid(s).


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#40 2011-10-09 20:08:54

yawnoCmai
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From: Fairfax, VA
Registered: 2011-02-23
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Posts: 633

Re: Camber and tire pressure for autox

I had another autox event today. I finished 2nd to the same guy that beat me before in the novice group. I definitely struggled with the course today. I had trouble with pretty much all the slaloms, especially the one at about 30 seconds into the video. On 2 of the 5 runs, I lost it midway through that one slalom, and on the other runs, I couldn't get into any kind of grove. As for the car its self, I set the rear soft and it felt much better. I am starting to look ahead a little better now, but it is still something that I need to work on. Any comments on mistakes I made, or things I could improve on are appreciated.

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#41 2011-10-09 20:51:23

Scargo
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From: Hancock, NY
Registered: 2005-06-15
User Number: 227
Posts: 13212

Re: Camber and tire pressure for autox

You are entering the tighter turns and long sweepers too fast. Brake sooner (and harder) and drive out. You're trying to carry too much momentum into turns. As for the slaloms, two things you need to do. On the course walk, determine if the spacing between the cones is evenly spaced (in which case steady throttle once you hit the first cone at either the correct, or slightly too slow speed (much better than even just a tiny bit too fast), if increasing spacing, gently add throttle, if decreasing back off the throttle as you go thru. Mixed? Apply the above accordingly.


1995.5 Audi //S6, Black/Ecru; MRC Stage 2, Eibach/Bilstein, RS2 BBK, HID's, Eurotails
2005 Saab 9-2X Aero Satin Grey; Cobb STX tune/Cobb 25 mm FSB, FHI RSB/H6 upgrade/Prodrive Blues, Koni Inserts/IxizHood/Stromung DP, Cat, STi catback, Hella MicroDE fogs, color keyed/polished roof rails.

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#42 2011-10-10 08:01:30

Linear Man
aka Boxer4dad
From: Brighton, MI
Registered: 2005-10-05
User Number: 837
Posts: 3495

Re: Camber and tire pressure for autox

arrow-up  What he said, and it might be due to that red button on your dash.  tongue 

All that tire squeal as you push through those sweepers is your enemy.  Not only is it not fast, but it heats your tires up, and can hurt your following run(s), too.  I have a lot of 1st-hand knowledge on this...


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#43 2011-10-10 10:31:30

yawnoCmai
Photoshopper Monkey
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From: Fairfax, VA
Registered: 2011-02-23
User Number: 5233
Posts: 633

Re: Camber and tire pressure for autox

Scargo wrote:

You are entering the tighter turns and long sweepers too fast. Brake sooner (and harder) and drive out. You're trying to carry too much momentum into turns. As for the slaloms, two things you need to do. On the course walk, determine if the spacing between the cones is evenly spaced (in which case steady throttle once you hit the first cone at either the correct, or slightly too slow speed (much better than even just a tiny bit too fast), if increasing spacing, gently add throttle, if decreasing back off the throttle as you go thru. Mixed? Apply the above accordingly.

The guy doing the novice course walk said the same thing about the spacing of the cones in the slaloms. I had never thought much about it till you both mentioned it. I agree on entering turns and sweepers to fast. It's another one of those mental things I have to overcome. Slower is smoother, smoother is faster... slower is faster? Damn you autocross logic.

Linear Man wrote:

arrow-up  What he said, and it might be due to that red button on your dash.  tongue 

All that tire squeal as you push through those sweepers is your enemy.  Not only is it not fast, but it heats your tires up, and can hurt your following run(s), too.  I have a lot of 1st-hand knowledge on this...

I was wondering if all that tire squeal was good or not. I was thinking that the squealing meant the tires were on the limit of their grip, but I guess it means that they are beyond their grip(which makes sense).

I also just saw the official results... the guy dropped 2 seconds in his final run to get 1st, otherwise I would have had him.  unamused

1T    SM    71    Chau Nguyen    2003 Mitsubishi evolution    black     55.615+1  54.185    53.890    54.327    51.893    Pax =  45.095
2T    STU    4    Scott Kozicki    2006 Subaru WRX Wagon    Black     58.587      56.688    56.217    55.887    54.928    Pax =  46.029

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#44 2011-10-10 11:19:59

Linear Man
aka Boxer4dad
From: Brighton, MI
Registered: 2005-10-05
User Number: 837
Posts: 3495

Re: Camber and tire pressure for autox

Yep, cone spacing is key on the slaloms.  The other thing I've seen here locally is, instead of one cone in a slalom, they set up a line of several cones that you have to go around.  Now, if that line gets longer, you have to go slower, and if it gets shorter, you can pick up speed.  It's the same idea, but you do have to recognize it, or you'll be all  banghead  afterward.  We had one event with a 7-element slalom that was like this, and it kept getting wider and wider.  I spun out twice near the end of it before my comprehension caught up...


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