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#1 2014-03-17 17:29:01

scope56
Member
Registered: 2013-08-15
User Number: 10144
Posts: 60

How are stock brakes on track?

When I say stock brakes, I really mean stock calipers and stock rotor equivalent with higher temp pads and fluid. When I say on track, I mean a road course, where I'd probably run in an intermediate group, probably an HPDE 2 or maybe a 3 depending on the club, and how comfortable I am in this car. I'd probably be using a pad like the Carbotech XP8.

Does that sound adequate? I can't really see myself doing more than a couple of track days for fun, so I wouldn't want to invest much, just want to be safe and have some fun with the car once in a while. That's assuming I get a few other things sorted with the car first. This isn't really a priority, but I know once I do my suspension, I'll be tempted to do a track day, so that got me thinking about braking.

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#2 2014-03-17 19:24:25

Scargo
Freely Inhabiting the Space I'm In
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From: Hancock, NY
Registered: 2005-06-15
User Number: 227
Posts: 14179

Re: How are stock brakes on track?

arrow-up  smart thinking. I haven't taken my car to an HPDE (yet).  I do Autocross, which doesn't tax brakes anywhere near track levels, so I don't have any pad recommendations, but considering I've semi-faded the stock pads (before I switched in Hawk HP+) in Autocross situations with stock boost and R-Comps, I'd venture a guess that the stock brake rotors are rather marginal in dumping heat. It was definitely pad fade, hadn't worked its way into the fluid.  You will definitely want to run full track pads (not familiar with the Carbotechs, it's been quite awhile), a full flush the night before you run (I'd consider Ford HD truck, ATE Super Gold (the blue stains), or Castrol SRF in increasing order of costs, freshness matters more than the actual fluid). I'd also consider pulling the fogs and rigging some ducting to the backing plate of your front rotors. Are you running any boost mods? Serious rubber? If so, you may outrun the brakes.  I'm assuming since you thought brakes first, you'd have the presence of mind to cool it the first sign of fade. It's less fun, but it'll keep the shiny side up.


1995.5 Audi //S6, Black/Ecru; MRC Stage 2, Eibach/Bilstein, RS2 BBK, HID's, Eurotails
2005 Saab 9-2X Aero Satin Grey; Cobb STX tune/Cobb 25 mm FSB, 22mm solid adj RSB/H6 upgrade/Noltec Camber Plates/STI Pinks, Koni Inserts/Whiteline Rear Stress Bar/Izixhood/Stromung DP, Crucial HF Kitty, STi catback, Hella MicroDE fogs, color keyed/polished roof rails.

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#3 2014-03-17 19:54:57

nstelemark
The other Morgan
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From: Halifax, NS
Registered: 2007-04-15
User Number: 1964
Posts: 2558
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Re: How are stock brakes on track?

I haven't run mine on a track but there have been several threads with people boiling the fluid with the stock brakes and being relatively unhappy  hmm


2015 WRX CVT Base Cobb-ProTune | Dunlop/Nokian | STi | Rally Armor | Phillips
2014 Forester XT Limited Cobb-S1 | Toyo/Nokian
2005 9-2X Aero 4EAT Cobb-S2 | Perrin | Toyo/Nokian | Whiteline | FHI | JDM STi | Rally Armor | IxizConcept | Paranoid Fabs | prodrive | Tokico
1999 JDM Legacy GT STi

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#4 2014-03-17 20:11:16

scope56
Member
Registered: 2013-08-15
User Number: 10144
Posts: 60

Re: How are stock brakes on track?

Thanks for the reply. I'll definitely flush the fluid before, and I have some ATE around, so I'll use that. Right now, I'm not sure what is in there, or when it was flushed last. I've only owned the car a few months or so. Power-wise, I'm at stage 1 with a catless uppipe, with Cobb's off the shelf map. So nothing crazy there, and I don't plan on anything further any time soon. I just want to get the car handling nicely and I'll be happy with that. Tires will be star specs. They are my summer tire of choice.

I'm figuring with the right pads and clean, hi-temp fluid, I should be ok. I can't see myself getting too aggressive. I'm not looking to go nuts, I just want a chance to enjoy the car in a controlled environment. I don't plan on putting in enough track time to actually get fast, I don't have the time or money for that. I'll be happy if I end up going twice this summer. I don't mind having to pull back a bit at the end of a session, it would just suck to find the brakes fading towards the beginning of a session.

That's not a bad idea to look into running some ducting. Not sure how much of a pain that would be, or if it would be necessary for my situation. Something to think about though. I think I'll do some research and pick a pad, and not mess with anything else (aside from fluid) until I've been out, and seen how it goes.

BTW, I see you're from NY. Not sure how far you are from Lime Rock, but that's likely where I'd go. If you decide to hit up an HPDE this summer, maybe we can coordinate. Maybe even convince a few other forum members to give it a shot.

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#5 2014-03-17 20:12:55

scope56
Member
Registered: 2013-08-15
User Number: 10144
Posts: 60

Re: How are stock brakes on track?

nstelemark wrote:

I haven't run mine on a track but there have been several threads with people boiling the fluid with the stock brakes and being relatively unhappy  hmm

Stock brakes including stock pads and fluid? I could definitely imagine that happening pretty easily on a road coarse. It is a pretty heavy car after all. But I'd hope that the right pads would make a significant difference.

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#6 2014-03-17 22:42:55

2JZ
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 2011-06-30
User Number: 5647
Posts: 1771

Re: How are stock brakes on track?

My experience with stock STi brembos stock pads and stock fluid.

Peddle feel completely failed after 10 minutes with aggressive driving with rcomps. Brakes basically failed.

After ferodo pads and some ate racing blue I did 20 minutes of racing with rcomps with ~5% difference (reduction) in pedal feel by the end of it.

Fluid and good pads will make a perfectly safe and enjoyable experience


2005 Saab 9-2x STi 6MT
2005 Saab 9-2x Aero 5MT
2006 Saab 9-2x Linear 5MT

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#7 2014-03-17 22:54:26

Scargo
Freely Inhabiting the Space I'm In
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From: Hancock, NY
Registered: 2005-06-15
User Number: 227
Posts: 14179

Re: How are stock brakes on track?

arrow-up  the issue with that comparison is the STI rotors are MUCH more massive than the stock WRX rotors we run (the '06 and later WRX run the same rotors even though the calipers change to fixed 4-pots, no help in the fade department.). I find the brakes to be on the weaker side for a car of this performance level. Yeah, they can handle Autocrossing, even on the bigger National level courses fine with mild pad upgrades (HP+ For example) but with decent tires that achieve decent exit speeds (alignment is a biggie here, BTW, you can really reduce the push with some negative camber) those little rotors get HOT real fast. Seriously get some high temp fluid and higher temp pads (I struggle here on heat ranges, but to put things in perspective, a Stg 1 Aero has a similar weight, weight distribution and HP levels as a 5.0 Fox body Mustang, the big difference being the rear disk brakes on the Aero can actually be modulated vs the on-off Fox body drums)


1995.5 Audi //S6, Black/Ecru; MRC Stage 2, Eibach/Bilstein, RS2 BBK, HID's, Eurotails
2005 Saab 9-2X Aero Satin Grey; Cobb STX tune/Cobb 25 mm FSB, 22mm solid adj RSB/H6 upgrade/Noltec Camber Plates/STI Pinks, Koni Inserts/Whiteline Rear Stress Bar/Izixhood/Stromung DP, Crucial HF Kitty, STi catback, Hella MicroDE fogs, color keyed/polished roof rails.

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#8 2014-03-18 12:39:48

Scargo
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From: Hancock, NY
Registered: 2005-06-15
User Number: 227
Posts: 14179

Re: How are stock brakes on track?

scope56 wrote:

BTW, I see you're from NY. Not sure how far you are from Lime Rock, but that's likely where I'd go. If you decide to hit up an HPDE this summer, maybe we can coordinate. Maybe even convince a few other forum members to give it a shot.

LRP is about 3.5 hrs from me.  I grew up much closer, and considered it my home track.  Then they got snooty, pricey and spectator unfriendly (and lost IMSA) so I haven't been back in several years.

I'd more likely go to WGI or MMP for an HPDE. Then it's a day trip or a much shorter limp home if I broke something.


1995.5 Audi //S6, Black/Ecru; MRC Stage 2, Eibach/Bilstein, RS2 BBK, HID's, Eurotails
2005 Saab 9-2X Aero Satin Grey; Cobb STX tune/Cobb 25 mm FSB, 22mm solid adj RSB/H6 upgrade/Noltec Camber Plates/STI Pinks, Koni Inserts/Whiteline Rear Stress Bar/Izixhood/Stromung DP, Crucial HF Kitty, STi catback, Hella MicroDE fogs, color keyed/polished roof rails.

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#9 2014-03-18 14:12:58

scope56
Member
Registered: 2013-08-15
User Number: 10144
Posts: 60

Re: How are stock brakes on track?

Scargo wrote:

LRP is about 3.5 hrs from me.  I grew up much closer, and considered it my home track.  Then they got snooty, pricey and spectator unfriendly (and lost IMSA) so I haven't been back in several years.

I'd more likely go to WGI or MMP for an HPDE. Then it's a day trip or a much shorter limp home if I broke something.

A shame we're so far, Watkin's Glen is probably 5 hours plus from me, so I doubt I'll make it out there anytime soon. I'm not familiar with MMP, where's that?

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#10 2014-03-18 18:42:43

tonka92x
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Registered: 2005-05-12
User Number: 17
Posts: 4389

Re: How are stock brakes on track?

scope56 wrote:

Thanks for the reply. I'll definitely flush the fluid before, and I have some ATE around, so I'll use that.

Depending on how long you have had the ATE around, you might want to get a fresh bottle before you flush, particularly if the ATE you have around has been opened.  Fresh brake fluid can absorb moisture incredibly fast.  When I worked on race cars we didn't trust any fluid that had been opened before we poured it into the brake system.  The only exception to this was the fluid we kept in the diaphragm pressure bleeder.

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#11 2014-03-18 19:51:29

lizzardo
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From: SF Bay Area, CA.
Registered: 2005-06-04
User Number: 158
Posts: 4377

Re: How are stock brakes on track?

At my local track, Sonoma Raceway (formerly Infineon, formerly Sears Point) I could get a little fade in a 20 minute session in my Linear.  I had upgraded the front rotors to the Aero-sized, and rear to H6.  I was using Hawk HPS pads and Ate Super Blue/Gold brake fluid.  I'm sure that if I had the extra power of the Aero I'd have been cooking them nicely.


2005 9-2X Linear --> sold | Volvo C30 R-Design 6MT --> sold
A Real Saab and a LeMONS Saab - 1978 99 Turbo and 1979 900 Turbo
A non-SAAB - MV F4 312R - Once, the most mental bike ever made
1991 Miata w/Hard top while this gets fixed -> Jaguar F-Type V6s w/6MT - commuter

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#12 2014-03-18 20:34:05

Scargo
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From: Hancock, NY
Registered: 2005-06-15
User Number: 227
Posts: 14179

Re: How are stock brakes on track?

scope56 wrote:

Scargo wrote:

LRP is about 3.5 hrs from me.  I grew up much closer, and considered it my home track.  Then they got snooty, pricey and spectator unfriendly (and lost IMSA) so I haven't been back in several years.

I'd more likely go to WGI or MMP for an HPDE. Then it's a day trip or a much shorter limp home if I broke something.

A shame we're so far, Watkin's Glen is probably 5 hours plus from me, so I doubt I'll make it out there anytime soon. I'm not familiar with MMP, where's that?

Monticello Motorsports Park (Club).  Sadly invite only, it's a private club.  In my case, it's a you have to know someone place.  Not a great track for a Stock, Stg 1 or even Stg STX car, a lot of long straights.

And yup, WGI is a haul if you're from LRP country.


1995.5 Audi //S6, Black/Ecru; MRC Stage 2, Eibach/Bilstein, RS2 BBK, HID's, Eurotails
2005 Saab 9-2X Aero Satin Grey; Cobb STX tune/Cobb 25 mm FSB, 22mm solid adj RSB/H6 upgrade/Noltec Camber Plates/STI Pinks, Koni Inserts/Whiteline Rear Stress Bar/Izixhood/Stromung DP, Crucial HF Kitty, STi catback, Hella MicroDE fogs, color keyed/polished roof rails.

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#13 2014-03-18 20:45:25

Scargo
Freely Inhabiting the Space I'm In
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From: Hancock, NY
Registered: 2005-06-15
User Number: 227
Posts: 14179

Re: How are stock brakes on track?

lizzardo wrote:

At my local track, Sonoma Raceway (formerly Infineon, formerly Sears Point) I could get a little fade in a 20 minute session in my Linear.  I had upgraded the front rotors to the Aero-sized, and rear to H6.  I was using Hawk HPS pads and Ate Super Blue/Gold brake fluid.  I'm sure that if I had the extra power of the Aero I'd have been cooking them nicely.

From what I've read (being a right coaster) Sears Point (sorry, can't get into the new names) was fairly hard on brakes.  LRP is a momentum track which isn't as hard on brakes as it could be. If you follow a late apex, momentum carrying line (like you'd do in a Linear or a Miata) vs. a point and squirt line you can preserve the brakes and mostly use them for the braking at the end of front straight into Big Bend (turn 1) and for Bridge Turn. Aero power will make it harder to just play the momentum game, but it is brake preserving.

And following on Tonka's advice, I assumed the OPs ATE was sealed containers. If they're open, they're dead.


1995.5 Audi //S6, Black/Ecru; MRC Stage 2, Eibach/Bilstein, RS2 BBK, HID's, Eurotails
2005 Saab 9-2X Aero Satin Grey; Cobb STX tune/Cobb 25 mm FSB, 22mm solid adj RSB/H6 upgrade/Noltec Camber Plates/STI Pinks, Koni Inserts/Whiteline Rear Stress Bar/Izixhood/Stromung DP, Crucial HF Kitty, STi catback, Hella MicroDE fogs, color keyed/polished roof rails.

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#14 2014-03-18 22:44:37

lizzardo
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From: SF Bay Area, CA.
Registered: 2005-06-04
User Number: 158
Posts: 4377

Re: How are stock brakes on track?

Scargo wrote:

From what I've read (being a right coaster) Sears Point (sorry, can't get into the new names) was fairly hard on brakes.

It'll always be Sears Point to me, and always be my home track;  however, I *try* to use the right name because I know that a lot of money goes into the name, and a lot of that money went into massive improvements both in the track and the facilities.  I first raced motorcycles there in 1989 and looking backwards with my knowledge of current configuration, it was horribly unsafe.  I met a couple of those guardrails up close, and I'm very happy they're either gone or farther from the tarmac. 

Yes, it's hard on brakes.  There are two really hard braking points and several lesser ones, with not enough cool-down time in between.


2005 9-2X Linear --> sold | Volvo C30 R-Design 6MT --> sold
A Real Saab and a LeMONS Saab - 1978 99 Turbo and 1979 900 Turbo
A non-SAAB - MV F4 312R - Once, the most mental bike ever made
1991 Miata w/Hard top while this gets fixed -> Jaguar F-Type V6s w/6MT - commuter

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#15 2014-03-19 14:18:27

scope56
Member
Registered: 2013-08-15
User Number: 10144
Posts: 60

Re: How are stock brakes on track?

My ATE is sealed, though I don't recall when I originally got it. Not sure what the unopened shelf-life of ATE is, but there is no warning on the can. It does say to change every three years, but appears to be referring to the fluid in the car.

Lizzardo, thanks for the feedback on your experience. HPS are still street pads, so I'd hope if I got something more aggressive, they would hold up decently.


Scargo wrote:

Monticello Motorsports Park (Club).  Sadly invite only, it's a private club.  In my case, it's a you have to know someone place.  Not a great track for a Stock, Stg 1 or even Stg STX car, a lot of long straights.

And yup, WGI is a haul if you're from LRP country.

Ah, guess I've never heard the acronym, and it didn't click. I'm familiar with Monticello, I was actually there once. Shame on me for not knowing.

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#16 2014-03-19 16:05:52

Linear Man
aka Boxer4dad
From: Brighton, MI
Registered: 2005-10-05
User Number: 837
Posts: 3527

Re: How are stock brakes on track?

scope56 wrote:

Ah, guess I've never heard the acronym, and it didn't click. I'm familiar with Monticello, I was actually there once. Shame on me for not knowing.

At this point, former insider is prompted to quip, "this place is for the proles".   biggrin

Someday, I will be back to Lime Rock.  I think my last trip was in 1981 or 1982.  I saw multiple IMSA and TransAm races there as a real young-'un.  My Dad was a racing fan - lucky for me.  The best ever was a race at Loudon (on the road course) in probably 1974 or so.  Parnelli Jones missed a drivers' meeting (iamchris, I owned punctuation there...), and had to start at the back of the field in his Mustang.  He not only passed the field, he lapped EVERY car except his teammate, George Follmer in the #16 Mustang.  I have NEVER seen anything close to that kind of domination since.  So, Parnelli will always be my hero.  They really do not make 'em like that any more.


Had>>>> 05 Black Linear 5MT, Prem. Package

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#17 2014-03-19 16:21:17

racerjim
Headroom is overrated...
Supporter
From: Boulder CO
Registered: 2005-06-16
User Number: 247
Posts: 2955

Re: How are stock brakes on track?

I saw the Jones/Follmer show at Mid-Ohio, I think the same year  They crushed all comers, including Penske (in the Javelin by then?) and the Jim Hall Chaparral Camaros.  The old TransAm was good stuff.


My Car:  2009 Mercedes Benz SLK55 AMG
SOLD August 2016:  2005 Saab 9-2x Aero 5-Speed, Cold, Premium, Arctic Silver
Her Car:  2013 Chevrolet Equinox LTZ

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#18 2014-03-19 16:22:01

kornfeld
Member
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From: San Francisco
Registered: 2008-01-22
User Number: 2503
Posts: 11465

Re: How are stock brakes on track?

lizzardo wrote:

Scargo wrote:

From what I've read (being a right coaster) Sears Point (sorry, can't get into the new names) was fairly hard on brakes.

It'll always be Sears Point to me, and always be my home track;  however, I *try* to use the right name because I know that a lot of money goes into the name, and a lot of that money went into massive improvements both in the track and the facilities.  I first raced motorcycles there in 1989 and looking backwards with my knowledge of current configuration, it was horribly unsafe.  I met a couple of those guardrails up close, and I'm very happy they're either gone or farther from the tarmac. 

Yes, it's hard on brakes.  There are two really hard braking points and several lesser ones, with not enough cool-down time in between.

Speaking of sonoma, you gonna be at the race this weekend?


Der Schuh
.
.

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#19 2014-03-19 21:11:35

lizzardo
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From: SF Bay Area, CA.
Registered: 2005-06-04
User Number: 158
Posts: 4377

Re: How are stock brakes on track?

kornfeld wrote:

Speaking of sonoma, you gonna be at the race this weekend?

Possibly, but only to spectate.  The car is far from ready.  I'm trying to avoid a repetition of Jay's condemnation, "That car sucks!"  Our theme requires we run *that* car, so I'm doing an extremely ambitious project.  I'm replacing all the engine management with a standalone, built from scratch system, MegaSquirt.  It's a *lot* of work, particularly if you can't buy a pre-built unit (too expensive for LeMons budget) and there is no map I can find for that engine.

I've built a timing table from the factory service manual specs and am working on a VE table.  I need to get some injectors first, since I'll need the flow rate to get anywhere near close.


2005 9-2X Linear --> sold | Volvo C30 R-Design 6MT --> sold
A Real Saab and a LeMONS Saab - 1978 99 Turbo and 1979 900 Turbo
A non-SAAB - MV F4 312R - Once, the most mental bike ever made
1991 Miata w/Hard top while this gets fixed -> Jaguar F-Type V6s w/6MT - commuter

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#20 2014-03-20 23:58:15

tlow98
Supporter
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From: Chicago
Registered: 2010-08-15
User Number: 4765
Posts: 5370

Re: How are stock brakes on track?

I ran my brakes pretty hard in the Appalachian mountains this past fall with centric blanks and stop tech lower level pads and only once encountered some very unpleasant pulsations.  After taking it easy for a couple miles it went away and the pads/rotors worked just as before.  This is with about ~5k miles on new pads/rotors/fluid all around that were bedded in correctly initially.

I would say this set-up was pretty close to what OEM was and I wasn't doing much threshold braking.  Only a bit and the pulsations started coming on pretty good.

I say all this to say I'd certainly want much more serious pads on a track day.  Even then you may encounter a bit of over heating, which is fine if it's the end of the sessions and you are safely aware of it.


05 MT, cold, sport...black

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#21 2014-03-21 00:14:40

kornfeld
Member
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From: San Francisco
Registered: 2008-01-22
User Number: 2503
Posts: 11465

Re: How are stock brakes on track?

lizzardo wrote:

kornfeld wrote:

Speaking of sonoma, you gonna be at the race this weekend?

Possibly, but only to spectate.  The car is far from ready.  I'm trying to avoid a repetition of Jay's condemnation, "That car sucks!"  Our theme requires we run *that* car, so I'm doing an extremely ambitious project.  I'm replacing all the engine management with a standalone, built from scratch system, MegaSquirt.  It's a *lot* of work, particularly if you can't buy a pre-built unit (too expensive for LeMons budget) and there is no map I can find for that engine.

I've built a timing table from the factory service manual specs and am working on a VE table.  I need to get some injectors first, since I'll need the flow rate to get anywhere near close.

That sounds daunting.  sadbanana


Der Schuh
.
.

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#22 2014-03-21 01:52:54

lizzardo
Sooper Genius
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From: SF Bay Area, CA.
Registered: 2005-06-04
User Number: 158
Posts: 4377

Re: How are stock brakes on track?

kornfeld wrote:

lizzardo wrote:

kornfeld wrote:

Speaking of sonoma, you gonna be at the race this weekend?

Possibly, but only to spectate.  The car is far from ready.  I'm trying to avoid a repetition of Jay's condemnation, "That car sucks!"  Our theme requires we run *that* car, so I'm doing an extremely ambitious project.  I'm replacing all the engine management with a standalone, built from scratch system, MegaSquirt.  It's a *lot* of work, particularly if you can't buy a pre-built unit (too expensive for LeMons budget) and there is no map I can find for that engine.

I've built a timing table from the factory service manual specs and am working on a VE table.  I need to get some injectors first, since I'll need the flow rate to get anywhere near close.

That sounds daunting.  sadbanana

Daunting indeed.  I'll probably be over budget (Jay declared or car to have a residual value of $20!) but it'll be close.  Depends on what I might get for the old K-Jet stuff that hasn't been manufactured in decades.  And then there's my time.  Assembling the electronics alone was about three days, plus numerous hours at the computer trying to simulate/create tables.  We haven't even begun to wire the car.  Been quite a while since anyone accused me of being smart.


2005 9-2X Linear --> sold | Volvo C30 R-Design 6MT --> sold
A Real Saab and a LeMONS Saab - 1978 99 Turbo and 1979 900 Turbo
A non-SAAB - MV F4 312R - Once, the most mental bike ever made
1991 Miata w/Hard top while this gets fixed -> Jaguar F-Type V6s w/6MT - commuter

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