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#1 2017-01-09 17:37:13

Bryan
why don't you remember my name?
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From: Western WI
Registered: 2007-01-14
User Number: 1768
Posts: 10156

EDIT: Doesn't start at all, cranks but no catch.

220k, 5mt 2.5i.  New battery, literally 2 weeks old.  Car is kept in the garage.

A few weeks ago the car started struggling to start.  It'd catch soon enough, after some coaxing.  Got the battery checked - one dead cell, but the rest was fine, got it traded out under warranty since it was only 5 months old.

After it runs a while, it starts right up, and there haven't been any electrical issues so far - I think the alternator is fine.  But after the car sits overnight or a couple nights - struggles worse and worse - yesterday it was a weak turnover, and finally got it going.

Methinks it's the starter.  Any other suggestions?

ADDED:  The "Airbag" light came on and stayed on a couple times when it limped to start.  Shut down, then restarted and it went away.

Last edited by Bryan (2017-01-13 12:59:40)


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#2 2017-01-09 17:44:11

drewsro
Gypsy
From: Highland, IN
Registered: 2014-01-10
User Number: 13600
Posts: 1182

Re: EDIT: Doesn't start at all, cranks but no catch.

Is something draining your battery?  Check for a draw.  Maybe try to keep a tender charger on it overnight (if you have one)

Starter usually is all the sudden.

Last edited by drewsro (2017-01-09 17:46:20)


2005 9-2x Aero 5MT- Stage 2
2007 Toyota Corolla CE
2016 VW GTI S
Need a CARFAX report? Message me.

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#3 2017-01-09 17:56:31

Bryan
why don't you remember my name?
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From: Western WI
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Posts: 10156

Re: EDIT: Doesn't start at all, cranks but no catch.

drewsro wrote:

Is something draining your battery?  Check for a draw.  Maybe try to keep a tender charger on it overnight (if you have one)

Starter usually is all the sudden.

No draw.  Everything unplugged, lights off, everything off, and I had a charger on it a few overnights already.  This was pretty sudden, just one day it didn't want to start, and been getting worse since.


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#4 2017-01-09 18:26:56

drewsro
Gypsy
From: Highland, IN
Registered: 2014-01-10
User Number: 13600
Posts: 1182

Re: EDIT: Doesn't start at all, cranks but no catch.

I would guess starter, but I'm not all that knowledgeable at this point, so I don't want to give you the wrong idea.


2005 9-2x Aero 5MT- Stage 2
2007 Toyota Corolla CE
2016 VW GTI S
Need a CARFAX report? Message me.

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#5 2017-01-09 20:15:31

krazykarguy
Worst ninja editor, ever.
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From: South Carolina
Registered: 2007-04-06
User Number: 1944
Posts: 8014

Re: EDIT: Doesn't start at all, cranks but no catch.

Familiar with a multimeter? Check the resistance of the B+ cable to the starter motor. I've seen corroded cables have so much resistance that the starter doesn't get the required amperage.

Best to have the cable disconnected from the battery to do it.

If it's still a pretty low reading, check the starter.


2005 Aero 5MT currently car-less

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#6 2017-01-09 21:04:40

mbandi
Mmmmmmm Scooby!
From: Transfer, Pa
Registered: 2011-01-31
User Number: 5179
Posts: 233

Re: EDIT: Doesn't start at all, cranks but no catch.

Sounds like starter.


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#7 2017-01-10 10:14:09

hammyt
0_0
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From: Chicago, IL
Registered: 2005-07-18
User Number: 562
Posts: 13834

Re: EDIT: Doesn't start at all, cranks but no catch.

But it does start right?

Like, are you always raring and ready to go when you first wake up?

Get off your high horse man and appreciate that it starts at all.

Some people don't even have cars man, jeez...


2005 Saab 9-2x Aero 5MT | 275whp/250wtq | 13.6@100 | SOLD
2014 Focus ST 6MT | Tuxedo Black

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#8 2017-01-10 20:28:20

Bryan
why don't you remember my name?
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From: Western WI
Registered: 2007-01-14
User Number: 1768
Posts: 10156

Re: EDIT: Doesn't start at all, cranks but no catch.

krazykarguy wrote:

Familiar with a multimeter? Check the resistance of the B+ cable to the starter motor. I've seen corroded cables have so much resistance that the starter doesn't get the required amperage.

Best to have the cable disconnected from the battery to do it.

If it's still a pretty low reading, check the starter.

Sorta...I'm still figuring out what all the crap means.  I figure if I see a bunch of corrosion on any wires to/from, I'll take care of that too - RockAuto has a starter motor headed my way already.


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#9 2017-01-10 20:28:33

Bryan
why don't you remember my name?
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From: Western WI
Registered: 2007-01-14
User Number: 1768
Posts: 10156

Re: EDIT: Doesn't start at all, cranks but no catch.

hammyt wrote:

But it does start right?

Like, are you always raring and ready to go when you first wake up?

Get off your high horse man and appreciate that it starts at all.

Some people don't even have cars man, jeez...

facepalm


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#10 2017-01-13 11:33:23

Bryan
why don't you remember my name?
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From: Western WI
Registered: 2007-01-14
User Number: 1768
Posts: 10156

Re: EDIT: Doesn't start at all, cranks but no catch.

OK - so did some more research and thinking and listening to the car, and I figured it wasn't the starter, since it turns over but won't catch.

checkmark

Fuel pump?  Nope - thought it was because the description matches the symptoms perfectly - I couldn't hear the pump click on, over the sound of the goddamned airbag charging, but since I couldn't get the fucking thing back into my own garage (because I was traveling this week and for some fucking reason my lovely GF demanded that her car get parked inside even though it fucking starts and has half the miles of mine), I had to get it towed.

It gets fuel pressure.

checkmark

This new-to-my-saabaru (regular shop can't get me scheduled ASAP, I have a trip on Sunday) shop thinks it sounds out of time.

I had the timing belt and kit done ~15k ago, I just did the coil pack and wires ~1500 miles ago.  If the regular shop brain farted (unusual) and didn't replace the idler pulley - could that have seized and be causing this?

Someone tell me this isn't going to be a >$500 repair now, because FFS, I just put $1k into it to fix the fucking suspension.


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#11 2017-01-13 11:39:12

hammyt
0_0
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From: Chicago, IL
Registered: 2005-07-18
User Number: 562
Posts: 13834

Re: EDIT: Doesn't start at all, cranks but no catch.

I mean in my experience if one of those idlers is going you will hear it over everything, especially with a stock Linear exhaust.


2005 Saab 9-2x Aero 5MT | 275whp/250wtq | 13.6@100 | SOLD
2014 Focus ST 6MT | Tuxedo Black

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#12 2017-01-13 11:55:08

Bryan
why don't you remember my name?
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From: Western WI
Registered: 2007-01-14
User Number: 1768
Posts: 10156

Re: EDIT: Doesn't start at all, cranks but no catch.

It did have a chirp for a while that went away when the weather started to get colder - every time the compressor kicked on to run the A/C, but that's an accessory belt, and not a major tensioner.

All the digging I've been doing this AM feels like I'm doing the whole Web MD thing and going down the rabbit hole.  But is seems like if it's not a skipping TB, then it'd be a bad crank position sensor or the connection to that sensor.

Any chance I royally fucked up my car when I was desperately trying to get it to turn over?  I even jumped it, when I still thought it was the starter motor.


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#13 2017-01-13 12:25:49

krazykarguy
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From: South Carolina
Registered: 2007-04-06
User Number: 1944
Posts: 8014

Re: EDIT: Doesn't start at all, cranks but no catch.

When you were able to get the car started, how did it run? Did it seem to run fine or have a rough idle?

When you did plugs and wires, what was the condition of the old spark plug boot ends? Were they oil soaked?

What is the standing charge of the new battery? Should be 12.8 or greater. What is the running voltage? Should be at least 13.6, up to about 14.4. The previous failed battery has me suspicious of your charging system.

Testing the starter cable (as mentioned earlier) should be done with a multimeter set to the 'ohm' setting, and should show a very low resistance from terminal to terminal.

Typically a bad crank/cam sensor will not only throw a CEL, but prevent the car from starting at all.

The other thing I can think of regarding the timing is that there are four idler pulleys on the SOHC motor, not just one - they all should be replaced when a timing belt is done. I think that your shop was only mentioning the one on the tensioner. I would not go on a shop's guess that it "sounds out of time" without pulling the timing covers off and verifying that.

This will help:

http://saab92x.com/manuals/2005shopmanu … 0Engine/SC(H4SO)%20Starting-Charging.pdf


2005 Aero 5MT currently car-less

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#14 2017-01-13 12:38:20

Bryan
why don't you remember my name?
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From: Western WI
Registered: 2007-01-14
User Number: 1768
Posts: 10156

Re: EDIT: Doesn't start at all, cranks but no catch.

krazykarguy wrote:

When you were able to get the car started, how did it run? Did it seem to run fine or have a rough idle?

When you did plugs and wires, what was the condition of the old spark plug boot ends? Were they oil soaked?

What is the standing charge of the new battery? Should be 12.8 or greater. What is the running voltage? Should be at least 13.6, up to about 14.4. The previous failed battery has me suspicious of your charging system.

Testing the starter cable (as mentioned earlier) should be done with a multimeter set to the 'ohm' setting, and should show a very low resistance from terminal to terminal.

Typically a bad crank/cam sensor will not only throw a CEL, but prevent the car from starting at all.

The other thing I can think of regarding the timing is that there are four idler pulleys on the SOHC motor, not just one - they all should be replaced when a timing belt is done. I think that your shop was only mentioning the one on the tensioner. I would not go on a shop's guess that it "sounds out of time" without pulling the timing covers off and verifying that.

This will help:

http://saab92x.com/manuals/2005shopmanu … 0Engine/SC(H4SO)%20Starting-Charging.pdf

Yeah, I've been through the manuals.

When it did start, it would take a while and finally catch.  The last time it started, it limped and stumbled like it had a misfire, then immediately smoothed out when I gave it a little gas.

Plugs were fine if just a little white-ish, and the boot ends have always had a bit of sticky oil on them.  Nothing more than usual, I'm pretty regular with checking.

The previous battery hadn't failed - I was insisting the parts shop take it back since I was convinced it was just the battery.  They zapped it out, and the little diagnostic thing they used also checked alternator current.  A-OK.

Tested the starter cable, things were good, very low resistance.  Battery checked out ~14, averaged over 3 checks.

Currently the shop is pulling the covers and looking - I'm just sitting here trying not to have a panic attack.

The usual shop I use was bought from the retiring owner by several of the long time mechanics, and they run a side business as a performance tuner/motorsports company for Mazdas and Subarus.  The same mechanic has been working on my car since it was practically new, ~220k ago.

Last edited by Bryan (2017-01-13 12:41:01)


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#15 2017-01-13 12:52:45

racerjim
Headroom is overrated...
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From: Boulder CO
Registered: 2005-06-16
User Number: 247
Posts: 2919

Re: EDIT: Doesn't start at all, cranks but no catch.

When these undiagnosable problems appear, I always think about a bad ground.  That problem presents in so many different and weird ways


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#16 2017-01-13 12:55:47

Bryan
why don't you remember my name?
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From: Western WI
Registered: 2007-01-14
User Number: 1768
Posts: 10156

Re: EDIT: Doesn't start at all, cranks but no catch.

Shop confirmed, belt is not lined up with marks, it's "off by quite a bit", but the belt looks fine, no excessive wear...may have skipped and retightened or something.

facepalm

IS there a chance I did serious damage to internals by trying to start this over and over?


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#17 2017-01-13 13:50:05

krazykarguy
Worst ninja editor, ever.
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From: South Carolina
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User Number: 1944
Posts: 8014

Re: EDIT: Doesn't start at all, cranks but no catch.

Only way to check for damage is to re-time the belt (make sure there are no missing teeth), then do a compression check. Bent valves will present as a low to no compression in one or more cylinders.

Did you replace the water pump when the t-belt was done?


2005 Aero 5MT currently car-less

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#18 2017-01-13 13:56:16

Bryan
why don't you remember my name?
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From: Western WI
Registered: 2007-01-14
User Number: 1768
Posts: 10156

Re: EDIT: Doesn't start at all, cranks but no catch.

Water pump, pulleys, belts were all replaced at the interval.  Currently trying to get the one shop to coordinate with this new one, since it ought to be under mechanic's warranty (TB was done less than 9 mos ago).  Even if it isn't...I need my car back ASAP since this is the middle of my sales travel season.

I have to get a rental for the trip on Sunday/monday, so the costs for all this are snowballing fast.


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#19 2017-01-14 11:17:47

Bryan
why don't you remember my name?
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From: Western WI
Registered: 2007-01-14
User Number: 1768
Posts: 10156

Re: EDIT: Doesn't start at all, cranks but no catch.

Turns out the 2 shops share work all the time - my guy sends his alignments to this other place, they refer "European and weird stuff like yours" to him.

Once they get the rest of the cover off on Monday, we'll know more, because as far as anyone can tell, this is a strange random occurrence, and there's nothing obvious about why a relatively new timing belt would slip like it has...and without the whole thing coming apart as if there was a timing belt service ($$$), it's just guesswork.

None of the teeth are missing on the belt, no loose rubber, everything is tight, things spin and rotate as they should be, it's just out of position.

I suggested and my regular guy concurred (but was insistent that it is rare but would explain it) that it could be the keyway that holds the crank gear in place is broken.  I had this happen on a '98 Legacy wagon, when I stupidly tried to pull, uphill, my partner's Taurus out of an axle-deep rut and yanked it hard when I dumped the clutch.  I haven't done anything anywhere near that stupid nor load-bearing on this car, ever - and haven't even had more than a couple duffel bags in the thing since August, and it was also starting before - though eventually needed more and more coaxing until it wouldn't anymore.


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#20 2017-01-14 12:39:25

countriccati
Member
From: Boston
Registered: 2015-02-18
User Number: 28345
Posts: 173

Re: EDIT: Doesn't start at all, cranks but no catch.

Probably not relevant but if the shop used a gates kit and tensioner perhaps it let go... http://saab92x.com/viewtopic.php?pid=1480801


me and my aero

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#21 2017-01-14 13:16:24

Rodman
Member
From: Long Island
Registered: 2006-03-01
User Number: 1046
Posts: 1906

Re: EDIT: Doesn't start at all, cranks but no catch.

☝️That's what I think too, them Gates tb tensiones have not been the most reliable lately.


2005 satin gray metalic aero, sold.
2005 black aero, rescue project, jdm STi ver 7 drivetrain.
2008 Subaru Outback 2.5i 5 speed manual daily driver.
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#22 2017-01-14 16:01:18

n_r_child
MFIC
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From: Denver. Past: Detroit & NM
Registered: 2005-06-14
User Number: 215
Posts: 4057

Re: EDIT: Doesn't start at all, cranks but no catch.

Knowing that it went from starting, to being difficult to start and then made it all the way to no start makes me think something was progressively slipping- so it was fine, then it slipped and the car was slightly out of time and started rough. It slipped further and eventually just reached a point when spark, fuel and air were so far beyond the correct ratios that ignition isn't possible.

I'm not familiar with tensioner failure modes, so maybe it's possible it is a tensioner. But since there are no damaged teeth, it doesn't seem to me that the belt slipped relative to the gear (otherwise I'd expect carnage, especially if the belt is still anywhere near tensioned). But could the pulley / gear be slightly loose, so that it slips relative to the engine internals?

Last edited by n_r_child (2017-01-14 16:06:58)


le sigh

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#23 2017-01-14 19:35:59

Bryan
why don't you remember my name?
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From: Western WI
Registered: 2007-01-14
User Number: 1768
Posts: 10156

Re: EDIT: Doesn't start at all, cranks but no catch.

countriccati wrote:

Probably not relevant but if the shop used a gates kit and tensioner perhaps it let go... http://saab92x.com/viewtopic.php?pid=1480801

Oh, that's a good point.  Thanks for the info, I'll definitely pass it along.


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